The main speaker of the Ministry of internal Affairs of Ukraine and the Deputy Arsen Avakov said about the war in the Donbas national traitors in Moscow and Kiev and about who will be affected by the disclosure.

He told this in an interview to the correspondent of "Novaya Gazeta" Paul Kanygin, piretanide.

Selfe with Lenin

From the point of view of the Ministry of interior, the demolition of Lenin in Kharkiv - was it legal?

- Exactly the same as the demolition of Lenin in Kiev in December on the Maidan. There are concepts of legality, is the concept of justice. Sometimes, these moments do not coincide, it is important to understand. Lenin monument represents for us and the younger generation of Kharkov Russia, it is a symbol of Russia, the symbol of Putin, lies, tyranny, which comes to us from Moscow. So our Pro-Ukrainian citizens overthrew not just a monument to Lenin.

And there was no response state.

"If the police intervened, would have been blood. And the monument to Lenin is not worth the blood of Ukrainian citizens. Or you want to say, it was necessary for him to stage a massacre?

It, probably, but the demolition of support was not worth it - from the point of view of the law. You then came to the square.

I came to the area after the stall and made him selfe.
What do you mean?

- Photographed himself with Lenin. And that's all. But from the point of view of the law, tell me, would Russia send troops in Ukraine? From the point of view of the right it was like? Across the country we have already dropped hundreds of these monuments, without observance of procedures, Yes. Citizens have a...

- Ukraine seeking like where procedures are strictly observed. But you now what again nod to Russia. I don't understand.

"We understand there is still a long way to Europe.

And until you can break the laws?

- I'm not saying that you can. Yes, this is a violation. But I want to say that the Governor has signed an order for the demolition of the monument. Yes, the citizens managed to dismantle faster. But it seems to me, for "Novaya Gazeta" there are more significant issues than the monument.

The question is not the monument, and that the rules are often ignored.

I will say that the situation in Kharkiv usual, everything is under control. But constantly appear all sorts of fakes, though plan to capture the regional administration that the factories in the city sew chevrons DND that the battalions of the "basics" and "Aidar" why are already under the city. Who dismisses these rumors? We know that in Russia there is a network of trolls who purposefully through the Internet escalate the situation, confront the foreheads of people, causing panic. By the way, is very actively working on something to relieve the citizens and the police. Yes, the police have already not perfect. In our society it is also not very fond of, and I think even more significant extent than in Russia. And often blamed, not dumasses in employee motivation. But police work.

"Which is better: five minutes of shame or five years of imprisonment?"

- Maidan demanded lustration in the MIA, she started?

- It will be. But sometimes people need too. I think it is impossible to demand punishment, for example, all the "Berkut". Punished, by law, must be those Berkutov, who shot and killed people on the Maidan. But they fled to the Crimea and Russia, took their weapons with them. And we will be looking for. But why punish the entire population just because they served in "the Eagle"? Punishment should be personalized.

Then there are those who fall under the law on lustration, no longer in the country?

"And what would you have done if you had blood on his hands, and power in the country took your opponents? Those who took decisions (about the shooting of demonstrators. - SC ), left almost immediately. We have all the law enforcement system was in ruins. Minister (Arsen Avakov. - SC ), when he came on the first day in the Ministry of internal Affairs - this is a huge complex of buildings where thousands of people - I did not see anyone, except for a few on duty. All were empty in the working day. All hid in their homes, many fled. No one knew what would happen next. Won the Maidan, the President fled. And had to start almost from scratch.

About the victory of the Maidan, by the way. Isn't it weird that disagree with the new course in Ukraine are persecuted and hounded almost with the same fervor as they do with the opposition in Russia?

- Remember the Odessa case Shufrych? That's what it is better for him to wait five minutes of shame, pain, fear and tears or five years in prison for the right articles of the criminal code? I think it is better to wait. In General, what's the problem with these garbage illustrated? That society does not believe that the state is able to make a fair decision! And at the same time, the nation is watching TV and sees that all these fucking face (from a team of ex-President Viktor Yanukovych. - SC ) do not receive punishment.
About national traitors

- Anton Yurievich, I'm all about the struggle against dissent. There's even a word is used the exact same as in Russia - national traitor.

- Are you a national traitor?

Rather each of the Ukraine.

"See?" But, in General, the problem is, you have it correctly diagnosed. But my point in what? So this problem was not, we need the law enforcement system was free to investigate crimes against senior persons To the society understood that the state can restore order and no need for anyone to hunt with garbage cans.

- Why do we chase?

- I also then the question. What is more valuable - the security of the state and its citizens against external forces acting, or the possibility of 24 deputies to act in the Duma, which leads aggression against us? Tell me! So I say, these people, 24 people, they are traitors, they went in the framework of the official visit to the country, which took us territory and killing our citizens. And I can't guarantee that ordinary Ukrainians will not want to seek revenge. Because it is not normal! It's like the state Duma would go in the Georgian Parliament during the 2008 war and they applauded would be standing. You can imagine it?

Then, by this logic, our country must stop all contact. At the level of families, friends, business. You call this?

"You hear me. Nobody talks about it. But the deputies who went to Moscow, - on them shall be the decision to lift immunity. According to Shufrych - then you need a criminal case on the fact of his activities against the interests of Ukraine. Understand, there are concepts of legality, and have concepts of justice and morality. So here's the moral: people believe that the Shufrych violates the norms of morality and ethics MP, he acts against the interests of Ukraine. Then let's make the case, will investigate, as was the case with Tsarevo.

- This scares! Search national-traitors - want in the end, as in Russia, chasing musicians and writers?

- Your Makarevich and Nemtsov is another. You cannot prosecute people if they have not done. And in the case of our traitors - are facts. These people made calls to violation of territorial integrity of Ukraine, as it has done repeatedly Tsarev. Well, here it is again I need to say on lustration, about which you asked. I'm even going to read. Talking about the circle of persons who held gadolinite in the reign of Yanukovych, i.e. from 2010. Starting with the Yanukovych and up to the chiefs and deputies of the territorial departments of the Ministry of interior and the security service.

"We agreed to the Russian army stopped"

- What is happening now in Donetsk - it fits into your idea of a truce?

- Does not fit. There is still aggression against Putin independent Ukraine. That is our vision. The armistice was a necessary step after in Ukraine, came a regular army of Russia. In fact, we, the West, Ukraine and Russia, has only agreed to Russian army stopped and did not go further. But we hoped that will stop the fire, what will be the exchange of prisoners, "all for all"that the OSCE mission will start monitoring the buffer zone, but nothing happened. The militants are doing everything to capture more territories. There are reports that the army of the Russian Federation attracted including attack our base in Donetsk airport, as it is known, stood a thorn in the ass in DND.

- DND need the airfield, landing field?

- Yes why? They are imported from Russia as many weapons as they want. They control 200 km border with Russia. To use the airfield for military aviation is also now impossible, all bombed.

- What to do with the bombing of the Donetsk? Because your too shoot from the airport?

- Drowsy given weapons in the hands of Amateurs. Pointing a gun or a howitzer, you're wrong on a few degrees in the rise of the barrel and the projectile flies to the target plus or minus a mile. They aim at the airport, shooting with 15 km and miss. There was a case recently in the Popasnaya, Luhansk oblast, where there are no nearby our troops. The militants, why it was shot in the center of the "Castle", hit the station ambulance.

- Still, what Donetsk? You and separatists get on peaceful.

- About Donetsk, I'll tell you this. Look, you even have a First channel showed the plot. Nine-to some old woman come militants and say, "Granny, let we here a couple of times westrelin". Shot and quickly run away from home. "Need, " they say, " hurry up, now will come the response!" There's your explanation. They hide behind civilians, while our guys dug in the ground and are forced to confront. Getting peace is incidental, but not intentional action.

"According to this logic, you can retreat to Lviv"

- It makes sense to keep the Ukrainian troops and on the airport?

The sense that this is our land. On the Minsk agreements, we must stand on those items on which we left to the time of the armistice. We are trying to get. Cannot deviate. Otherwise, according to this logic, you can retreat to Lviv or chop.
Among the Pro-Ukrainian public is increasingly say that perhaps it is better to leave the Donbass. What do you think?

- Let them say what they want. But all the defenders of the airport there is an understanding that you cannot give the enemy a single inch. The airport is convenient in terms of defense, there are many concrete structures, which allow you to hide from attacks. There are underground tunnels. And the people there know what they are worth. Our President did not give the command to leave, he decided - we'll be there.

- Petro Poroshenko said recently that in the battles destroyed 60% of the military equipment of Ukraine. That is, almost no weapons?

- It was only about 60% used in ATO equipment. But not all that there is in the country. We repair and restore. Yes, there were big losses. The Russians, in particular, were destroying our weapons its high-precision technology. They did it at a great distance, Susila to us drones. Have set goals and beat from its territory. For example, there is such a system "Smerch" with a cluster warhead, which beats at a hundred kilometers. They were shooting at us not hesitate, in the open from its territory, but we did not answer, could not.

Why couldn't?

It was interpreted as an attack on Russia. We didn't want to provoke a war and thought that Putin would not dare to enter the regular army. Limited postdelivery. But, as you can see, was not limited. But we also learn to fight. After a loud event in Zelienople when "Grad" the Russians killed dozens of our military, who were simply in the field. At that time none of the military even thought of burrowing into the ground. But now our soldiers are buried in these dugouts that carry any fire.

West promised to help Ukraine arms. Delivery go?

To the West was the flow of weapons to us, there is no such thing. Although there were talks, and even intentions were. Yes, we have and its development, but the production is incredibly expensive. Now the young technology that we have, for 20-30 years, you know? We have chaos in the aviation, which all Russian, and we can't buy replacement parts.

About the myth of the corridor to the Crimea

- How long did they remain such a truce?

- The truce should be used to strengthen our current position. But we do not reject in any case from the occupied territories. And the Crimea, too, is ours. Will become our. And now I want to dispel the myth that Putin supposedly needed a land corridor to the Peninsula. It's all nonsense. Putin doesn't care about the inhabitants of the Crimea. I will say that Russian goods in transit as we traveled through Ukraine in the Crimea, and go on the trucks. Nobody prevents them. You can still come to the Crimea by train - please train Moscow-Simferopol. Just on the border checks. Shipping cargo tonnage - so there's ports. That is no problem! Therefore, the "corridor" need Putin to speculate and strengthen their own power in Russia. All this aggression against Ukraine just need to slow down our way in the civilized world. Imagine if we did this perfectly and without war, a resident of Kharkiv could in a few years without a visa to travel in Europe. And his friend from Belgorod - no. He, Russian, would have thought - why so? Why ukrop did it, but can't we? Putin is afraid of such issues. So he stopped us for many years.

- Amnesty and the OSCE said about the involvement of the battalion "Aidar" to the kidnapping, robbery and torture. And how about the far-right ideas in other battalions?

- Again about fascists of the "Azov"? Well got already, honestly! But you and I will meet you somewhere in captivity were in DND. Now, Andrew Beletsky, the leader of the "Azov" - he is the head of the organization "Patriot of Ukraine". When the question arose, what Ukraine to protect particularly no one, he and his guys came out and defended. Many of them had already died, were wounded. No Nazism there is no trace.

And the Swede, who also fought in "Azov"?

I can think of dozens of examples, when our war fighters from Belarus, even one German, who died. So if someone comes to advise our fighters, we do not ban. About "Aydar". When there is a war can indeed be some excesses. But then again I want to say about a factor of morality and justice. For example, the model: the terrorist States that planted a bomb in a plane that is already in the air. Question: can you ask him how to defuse the bomb, violating the laws of humanity? And if this plane is your son? You understand, a lot of nuances. "Aydar" killed about 100 people, heroes. Of course, there are times when something is broken. But the war itself is already a violation of human rights. War should not be.
"We cannot turn a blind eye on the property Rotenberg"

- Gennady Korban, partner and Deputy Kolomoisky, recently stated that the property of the Russian oligarchs subject to weaning. It was even specifically about the assets of Rotenberg.

- Yes, he said that the Director of the shopping centre Rotenberg "Ocean Plaza". Now answer me: many of our businessmen including Korban was taken in the Crimea property, and how they should now behave? Why should we ignore the fact that Kiev is super liquid property? Rotenberg, say, bought it for $ 250 million and he brings Rotenberg income.

- Think in principle it is permissible to take the assets of the military-political considerations?

- Now we have the same question! What is then the right was taken from citizens of property in the Crimea?

It is also illegal, there is no dispute.

"Well, let's make a law by which citizens of Russia as an aggressor state will lose their property in Ukraine! Well because then it turns out that you beat us, and we substituted the other cheek, so what?!

"Wait a minute. Power in Russia is behaving wildly, uncivilized, let it be so, but Ukraine wants to be a civilized country? Or not?

- What are you talking about, Paul? When was the Second World war the US confiscated all the assets of Germany, and Germany - all of the assets of the United States. And that's all. What is the barbarism? There is war! Just have it like nedovolna. Good we need all the assets to take. Russia is already done. You know what they already closed "Privat Bank"? At once, on the third day, as Kolomoisky called Putin a schizophrenic, the Central Bank of the Russian Federation closed "Private", without any remorse. Sent all of a sudden there checking scared all the customers. (March 6, the CBR introduced in "Moscomprivatbank" external control, and not explaining the reasons for the decision. For ten days the depositors took from the Bank 9 billion rubles At the end of the month "daughter" of "Private Bank" was sold to "the Bank" - P.K.). And what are we? We are at war or if war? Russian oil and gas go through our pipelines to Europe, drive train of the machine, fly your planes and all is well? While in the Crimea, we lost ownership of billions of dollars.

As it lost?

Our citizens cannot exercise their right of ownership. All transactions are frozen, the owners bear the loss.

"Yanukovych, Arbuzov and Kurchenko now offices in "Moscow - city"

What with confiscation of the assets of President Viktor Yanukovych's family? It was a lot of talk.

- It's a long process, we still have all of his assets to find. Much is recorded on the offshore, as in the case of "Ocean-plazas". Much they have managed to sell their shares. And then we have to go through, as is done in the United States according to the law on financing of terrorism. If there is a suspicion that this property belongs to the terrorists, arrest for... half a year! And that's all! Up to six months we will investigate! I advocate this approach. Any suspicions taken into account. In the press investigated that Sasha Yanukovych (owns - P.K.), all in six months! Not ethical? Nothing. Recorded on other people, homeless people of Cyprus? OK, let's find out where you got 30 million to build a shopping center.

- How are things with the search Yanukovych, Arbuzov, Kurchenko?

From data intelligence know that they even have offices next door in your "Moscow-city". And the press wrote. The problem is what? Interpol does not want to declare them in the search. Interpol says: prove to us that this is not a politically motivated prosecution. And so, five months have passed. Even Yanukovych does not declare. But on the other hand Interpol refused to search Kolomoisky and Avakov. Do half thought and said Russia is "no". Or this aspect. All these named people become citizens of Russia, as it is for its citizens does not issue how and Ukraine.

- How do you know that they are the citizens of Russia?

Was a secret decree granting them citizenship. Think of it as intelligence.

That was in Ilovaisk

- How come that under the Ilovaisk killed so many people?

I this tragedy was studied in details. The transfer had to take in order to block the route Donetsk-Snow, which was carried in Donetsk received weapons, equipment, replenishment. In this case, drop DND would be a matter of two weeks. Ilovaysk - this is a key point. We have toward him, but it was too forward. Strength was not sufficient, but it was desire. I then asked, what data had intelligence. Exploration spoke: 50 terrorists poorly armed. But in fact turned out to be ten times more! And in fact Ilovaysk we are not surrounded. From the other side in the city were constantly coming fighters. We fight went, but reserves normally and not pulled. And there started the mess, mini-Stalingrad. It lasted a week, and on Sunday the 24th of August came the Russian army and it's all over. Here in Kiev, when the Russians came in Ilovaisk, was the parade (August 24, Ukraine celebrated the independence Day. - P.K.), the generals tried the new shoulder straps. Volunteers and journalists shouted: now will the environment! You need to go! To exit was time to Monday morning, but no order was never given, and began cutting.
"But there was an agreement that the military will release from the boiler? Putin spoke out.

- Agreement was reached on the basis that we were Russian prisoners of war. And agreed that give our Russian prisoners of war and in return go out with weapons and banners. But then when we came out, the Russians said, "No shit. Turn in weapons." Our received as heroes refused. And they began***** (fugacity) and together with prisoners. Their names we published it two soldiers of the Ulyanovsk region, and another I don't remember where, he tore polnoy. That is, the Russian military has decided not to comply with the contract, and it is better to fight. There were about 1200 of our Ukrainian fighters. Tygacil full of artillery, Phursov.

- Know the death toll?

- Just can not yet speak. Only 500 of unidentified bodies therefrom and 500 families throughout Ukraine rent DNA. It's not just our military tragedy. It is generally difficult to find words.

- After that Ukraine had agreed to a truce?

- I say, if the West will swallow all this way, Putin will only move forward.

All understand, but why do you have everywhere and at all costs Putin?

Because he has created such a system. Even when I say to Putin, it is not necessarily personalized it. This whole system.

Volunteers want to fight for Donbass next?

- Want. But we have almost no army that could stand in this war. It is foolish to send guys with small arms against tanks without proper intelligence, powerful infantry force. But what the hell motorized infantry, if we have a battalion of Donbass" moved on 35 donated jeeps? I talked with Colonel Selivanova, which captured T-72, taken from a lost Russian, went out from the environment. On the tank there was a sign with the date of production, October 2013, this note. Though our T-72 twenty-five and more years, there is no thermal or night vision, nothing. And so they went, and stood against them thirty tanks. Well, what is war?
"Maybe it is better not to fight?

- To protect and fight for their country need! To prepare for this, to learn to fight and win.

Paul Kanygin, "Novaya Gazeta"

Source: http://censor.net.ua/